Cory Brown Cory this was an other volume by B. Heller & Co. Your link was an earlier version in 1922 this one is 5 years later in 1927 and talks about FREEZE-EM-PICKLE CURING BRINE.
B. Heller & Co. 1927

Dave in AZ Okay, you convinced my I’ll take your advice on using it for another project. I never got around to making the guanciale, but I guess I’ll revisit it. I’ve 20lbs of it, LOL! I had a friend who worked for d’artagnan meats and I could order anything at a huge discount, but now it’s time to use it…

Denny O Delicious! It’s excellent with Eggs!

Thanks I’ll try this and seems I’ve tried that at the moment to it’s it’s a bit a bit funny trying to speak and watch the typing come up but thanks for you guys to help Betts. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

processhead Thanks, Paul! I’m right now smoking some 50/50 Pork/Beef Hot Dogs!

C-FLOW welcome aboard and I recommend Walton’s 11 lb stuffer.

Yeah he’s talking about encapsulated citric acid and you’re right, that’s not going to remedy your problem. I tried it once years ago and saw nothing any different as far as taste, it is claimed that using it allows that finished product to sit out without refrigeration but I have my doubts about that!! Besides everybody has a fridge handy right??

processhead I can’t remember where I came across “the bitter potion” but it was many years ago when I was much longer and had hair; but my lovely wife commented that it looked a lot like my younger self so I have kept it all these years…358

This is the hourly measured levels of testosterone of Jonathon vs Austin whilst Austin was on his vegan diet. I’ll let you determine which shade of blue is who! haha!

Denny O yes indeed.

tarp said in Rookie mistake with game birds:

I have that Garrett pinpointer with the metal det. equipment, No doubt it will find that BB

The price on those looks very affordable. Pretty hard to justify not having one if you shoot a lot of upland or waterfowl.

David Nicholson welcome aboard

Nick in MN Sorry for the hijack Nick! We all do seem to get side tracked very easily here.

Don’t do it - These sausages may be fermented or acidified using various acidulants such as encapsulated acid or glucono-δ-lactone (GDL). The USDA-FSIS requires that summer sausage have an MPR of 3.1:1 or less and a pH of 5.0 or less to be considered as shelf-stable.
In other words… make your snack sticks taste like dog treats…

cdavis Thank you! They are a hoot!

Built mine in a 40’HC shipping container. Wish I was mobile! That looks like it’s going to end up being a nice build!!! I’ll watch to see if you post a final update!

Threedraw I normally add 1 cup of water per 5# of meat. But with the carrot fiber I found it was still almost too stiff to stuff easily. So add more if you are having problems. I found I don’t like the carrot fiber for snack sticks but It works for summer sausage and brats. I switched exclusively to surejell for sticks. A lot easier to stuff in my experience.

mdseaside Sounds like you learned the hard way but look at the bright side now you know how to rebuild a stuffer.

Steven Winscot thanks for the info. Am confident now that I’m doing the right thing

rwilli2 ECA is a matter of personal tastes, do a small batch to see what you like.

gus4416 If it says it’s for jerky give it a try, if the mix is for 25lbs divide the seasoning weight by 25 and then times it by 3, that will be the amount of seasoning needed for a 3 pound batch. You will probably need a digital scale to weigh the amount of spice needed.

djman69465 said in Too much Meat Binder will do what?:

processhead - Gotcha ya. I didnt have enough experience at what poor extraction looks like. I just know it wasn’t as tacky as last time. I thought about making extruded or restructured but it didn’t look too bad. I think the vinegar in the sauces took it s toll overnight as well.

I suspect it was a combination of things, but acids will undo the binding qualities of extracted proteins and kill the bind for sure.

srg158 said in Meat Processing Tools:

pH meter

This is what I use

Apera Instruments Premium-Series PH60S Food pH Pocket Tester Kit, Swiss Spear pH Electrode, ±0.01 pH Accuracy, -2.00-16.00 pH Range (AI313)

The muscle proteins that create texture dissolve with salt and it takes at least 1.75% of meat weight salt to do that. Some binders can interfere with that, so salt & cure should go in & mix before the binders are added. Even when you’re done mixing, the proteins will continue to dissolve through about 72 hrs and the texture will get more stiff and rubbery so after mixing, you can hold in the refrigerator for 4-8 hrs or overnight , then remix a little (or do your final grind ) before stuffing to get a more chewy texture. You can feel the difference and it can get stiff enough to cause problems stuffing it. You can overmix something or smear the fat in grinding or mixing if the particle size gets too small for the fat, no amount of protein can capture it and you can get a pasty texture or grease-out. If you take a slice of pepperoni out of the package and rub it gently between your fingers, your fingers will be coated with an oily film or if you’ve ever troweled cement, you know rubbing with the trowel across the surface puddles & smooths the surface - same thing happens with friction going through a grinder or through a stuffing horn and the product will have surface grease or the collagen casinfg won’t adhere to the meat. You can maybe see some of this if you put a meatball-sized piece of batter in a sandwich bag and squash it flat, then look at the particle size and how well the particles are defined, especially the fat - compare one made at a lower temperature like 32F vs. one at a higher temperature made at 40-45F.

jake Kar Wal Yes, the culture, a place to maintain the correct temp and humidity, and a way to test the ph.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge guys. My mistake generated great response. I am replacing with a new batch, starting it today with smoker finish tomorrow. Thanks Waltons for this platform to access so many excellent ideas

Deepwoodsbutcher Very interesting. What would happen if you made a cut indention or serration while the mix was still soft. Would it work & make cutting/separating the strips easier?

In a pinch you can run water in em for a few minutes works to did it yesterday they will just wanna stick on the horn but keeping it wet fixes that

I have used 5+ year old casings with no blow outs. They were stored in a brine more or less & refrigerated. I found that storing them in my outbuilding refrigerator rather than the kitchen fridge is much better for my marriage.

PaPaSmokes I don’t blame you, We always used hog casings when processing smoked sausage but used collagen for snack sticks and hung those while linking on tri tip smoker sticks which stopped them from unraveling, then they were cut to length after smoking. The pork links We cut right after linking, moved them to the freezer and packaged when semi frozen. The collagen were expensive to use for breakfast links and snack sticks so We looked for another option and came across the Colosimo press, We purchased one with 3 dies, flat jerky, link sausage and snack stick. It worked so well it was used for all formed jerky, snack sticks and breakfast links. The savings paid for the press within the first week and We saved thousands every year.

GWG8541 I had not seen that. Good stuff!!

mrobisr Well, I don’t know about that, but it was very good & thank you too.

Got two bundles of tubed. Would be not use anything else.

mckenbernie If you want ham flavor then you have to add cure, ham spice, and either real smoke or liquid smoke. If you don’t add those steps, then all you will have is a fresh pork roast. In the short amount of time you are dealing with you will need to insure that they are well injected and phosphate will help keep the meat juicy.

Denny O Can’t wait to hear about your travels.

WVTim good looking sausage 😋. Congrats

processhead very nice looking summer sausage!

bocephus I would, you just want to remove the air out enough to make the bag airtight so you don’t get moisture transfer

Spidey great review. Thanks

Steven Winscot I agree with all that have posted about vac sealing opened spice mixes; however, I also add a 1 gram packet of food safe silica gel to help absorb excess moisture…works great !!!

JLane I received my eggs last week and gave them a try yesterday with not a lot of success either. However after reading some more postings I see some are running water over them first which makes them slippery. Maybe that’s the key. Will give that a go and see what developments.

calldoctoday There was another u tube video that was doing just that except they were advertising 2 different sized containers.

mrobisr Thanks for thoughtful response. I’m planning on making a small batch to test the suggestions offered on this board.

processhead Recover…

Steven Winscot great to hear. Any comments on how real world health or FSIS inspections work, or how strict you had to be on food being out, when you could put back in fridge etc, would be interesting and fun to read!

I just typed this out as someone was asking how long they could leave stuff out, figured I’d at least link some info.

I use 2 lbs. for 25 lbs. of meat. I also pulse the cheese in the food processor a couple of times in small batches to cut the size down . Seems to distribute more evenly throughout the sausage better.

Grimpuppy said in 25lb batch of Hot Links with Swiss Cheese:

JLane said in 25lb batch of Hot Links with Swiss Cheese:

Grimpuppy hey, this is an old post but I just came across a good deal on a L*M #8 with a dual grind and wanted your opinion. I do about 400-500lbs a year, can the #8 keep up? I have other grinders but the time savings on the dual grind is enticing.

To do 25 pound batches in the L*M #8 was about a 2 hour process by the time you ground, re-cooled and then ground again.

I’m right at about the same time, maybe including a certain amount of clean up. You also need to keep in mind re freezing the grinding head in between batches. A large amount of meat requires keeping the head cool. With the large amount of meat and not cooling the head you will be cooking the ground meat and the head will most certianly be getting hot!

calldoctoday I did find a nice consistent thickness point cut and a medium sized head of cabbage today.

Yep it is in the basement fridge.

Dave in AZ said in Forgot encapsulated acid:

EDaniels said in Forgot encapsulated acid:

Ok I missed adding encapsulated citric acid in my salami mix does it require the 12hr hold time like summer sausage if so can I freeze and cook another day?

I’m not too sure what you are attempting. Salami is a fermented, uncooked, dried product. So you never add ECA because the ferment does the acid for pH drop, and you don’t cook it since the pH drop and drying defeat bacteria.

Sounds like you are just making a smoked or cooked sausage?

If you had cure1 in it, no accelerator, it needs to sit for hours to work. Maybe 6 would do it with ground meat, as Paul said above, but of course 12 is recommended. If you freeze, it stops the cure reaction. Cure1 works in the 30s and above. So at some point you need to thaw it and let sit a bit.

I am going to guess he is making a cotta salami. Not a traditional dry cured.

Gipper Personal preferences, try it both ways to see what you like. In this instance theres really no wrong way. When I worked processing wild game we put hamburger seasoning in burger before packaging.

GWG8541 Our closest Costco is over 200, I am pretty sure. Sam’s is about 10. Sam’s store can get pretty packed these days, but still bearable. The prices from what I have heard are no where near to as good as Costco, Now the rough patch these days with Sam’s is the gas line, unless I get there literally at 6:00 in the morning. The lines are around the block for all lanes from around 7:30 am until closing at night. It is insane. That just started maybe two years ago. They re-worked the pumps, just before it started. I don’t think they had any way of knowing what was coming. The good news on the store being busy is we can get free reliable shipping & we use it in some cases. For instance, Worcestershire sauce. Two 20 oz bottles delivered free is only $3.00 more than one 16 oz bottle at Walmart at $8.00. That is insane, but you cannot get it in the store at all, so have to order it & it has been like that for the past year or so.

Randyman that’s a great idea 💡

mdseaside said in Cure for summer sausage not involving nitrite:

Maybe this will help. Sometimes I use my smoker as an oven to cook my summer sausage with no smoke. So if I am cooking in a High oxygen atmosphere do I need nitrite in my mix?
Maybe someone can help answer this question.

I don’t think the issue is whether you smoke or don’t smoke.
The issue is the relatively low temperatures over a long period of time during typical thermal processing of sausage.
Also consider that regardless of how much oxygen is around the outside of a sausage, the meat inside is sealed in a relatively oxygen free environment where anaerobic spores could grow under the right temperature conditions.
It is this period of time in the danger zone that that calls for the use of cure #1.

Denny O At least you figured it all out, I stay confused these days.

Thank you all for your kind words👍🙏

cdavis Thanks Charlie.

ghostrider that is great advice 👍. Welcome aboard

Dave in AZ great yo know I am looking at a 12 gal cambro vessel as the Breville says it will handle 12 gal.

PaPaSmokes wow that’s a lot of smoking. What a great cause 👏 thanks. And your setup is one of nicest I’ve ever seen . Congrats and good luck 👍
.

GWG8541 OMG!! 😖 😖 😖

Ridley Acres said in To EQ or not EQ...:

The sub zero temps allowed me to cold smoke for a very long time and then I used gas smoker to get it close and finished to safe temp in my house oven. (which made the house smell amazing!)

Humm, your cold smoking sounds vaguely familiar to me. 🙄 🙄

Jonathon
I just made a 25lb batch of H and turned out very good. What’s the flavor difference between H and Ton’s. My local meat processor uses Excalibur spices and I’m trying to get close to that, which has a heavy garlic flavor with lot’s of mustard seed.

Awesome guys thanks for your input and knowledge.

Will do thanks again…

I have had the same question running through my mind a lot. The one thing I come up with is it all related to the strength of your brine. So there is no one percentage for all brines. That being said I go by the instructions on the brine and keep a record of what I did and how it came out and make adjustment in the future if I feel it is needed.

Thanks ordered it along with the regular patty maker

Denny O F-L-A-N-G-E is what gets blocked.

Full100 0 it sounds like a lot of the powdered binders would work. Soya protein, low fat powdered milk, maybe some cornstarch. I would think that your going to have to emulsify quite a bit to get it to work, and then your winding up with more of a surimi thing, than a sausage thing. But maybe with some small chunks of fish in there, and the emulsified fish, you might come up with what your looking for. It’s just going to take some trial and error to figure it out. It going to take some low temperatures, 130° to 135° to make it work. At those temperatures make sure you follow the pasteurization schedule. Having said all that, it is still all just My opinion 😁 I was thinking about trying it with salmon, but the thought of salmon surimi didn’t sound to appealing to me. I am going to make some salmon snack sticks, probably a pepperoni, taco mix flavoring. I’ve made those before, and they actually turned out pretty good. Good luck on your adventure! If you do make them, by all means, let us know how it turns out.

zbigjeff Amen I agree!

txrancher Yes I posted it above.

BobSmith welcome aboard. Glad to have you here.

Dave in AZ Those look wonderful!

Dave in AZ thanks for sharing those videos

paulsje welcome aboard

You picked a hard one for fist time. But help is on this site.

Jesser If you use community instead of forum it will allow it.

https://meatgistics.waltons.com/post/104200

rjh2 said in How to load your snack sticks to MB40:

chippewa How many pounds can you do at a time in the MB40?

My memory is horrible! But I believe that was 15#. I usually keep really detailed notes but I haven’t since I got the extra racks.

salmonmaster looks great. Congrats 👍

jfyoung45 Pineapple denatures meat at temperatures below 160 degrees, (especially chicken and pork for some reason faster) and the enzymes become inactive as the temperature rises above 160 degrees. It is an enzyme known as a protease which is a type of enzyme that breaks peptide bonds in proteins. As I said before, it will eat your casing when used un-processed and ruin your product, I researched this pretty hard when I had problems with my sausages using pineapple products other than those processed beyond 160 degrees.

ricnordl that’s a great score on meat. Congrats 👍

Kavon In my opinion, if you followed the waltons smoke schedule, the 175° till you hit 160° internal temp might be the cause. If your at 175° for a period if time, your going to get fat out. It takes under 2 minutes at 150° internal temp to pasterize the sticks, killing all the bad things in there. You can pull them sooner, and achieve 150° at a lower temp in the smoke house. And there’s always the sous vide method that I prefer.

Dave in AZ said in An observation about pork versus beef fat in venison sticks today, pork may hold together better, and a question....:

cdherman bummer, sorry to hear all that. But I do appreciate you posting about it, it will help someone else later, I’m sure.

I can’t recall all details of this thread, so I may be repeating… but, I am absolutely a fan of finishing snack sticks in sous vide, AND NOT on smoker. Particularly if there are cold Weather and smoker temp control issues! Just stick things in smoker a few hours to get smoke flavor, then pull, cut and bag them up ( some folks SV unbagged), they will all get to 160 or whatever in 40 min or so, no fat out, done. Toss bags in ice water. No smoker hot spot or capacity or energy issues.

Here’s a thread of how I do the process, with pics, you may find it useful in the cold weather.
https://meatgistics.waltons.com/topic/5160/meat-sticks-with-sous-vide-finish-in-bags?_=1676687336297

Very interesting. I have a really nice induction range that has sous vide blue tooth capabilities, but I have not explored. Maybe I should smoke the heck out of the sticks at a low temp – my pellet smoker is really nice at low temps – and then just vacuum pack them up and water bath them to 160 and done…

Thanks all for the input. I basically kill deer because there are too many of them and then I try to process the meat to make as many people understand that venison is edible! When I have a fail, I am wounded. Bit of a perfectionist…

bocephus Whipper Snapper.

JPMN Yeah, you wont get the casing to stick again. It probably either did not have enough fat content or the meat they used was of lower quality. This sounds odd to say because Sausage started to be able to use the lower quality cuts of meat (trim) but there is a difference between the quality of the cut and the quality of the meat.

Oh, should have read the last sentence! Yes, you are good to go for your plan!

Jonathon said in Citric Acid:

but there are better options for cure accelerators for pressed hams like Sodium Erythorbate

Commercially that is what we used.

Gipper Good luck and let us know the results.

Gipper They should have been here today, they left Dallas last night but I guess the driver got tired or lost! No, I have no idea what happened but I know they were moving towards us on Friday and didn’t arrive today for some reason. Anyway, I highly doubt that it will work, it might hookup, but we specifically had our grinders have a higher RPM that I think (though cannot prove) is why the one shot works as well as it does. However, you are welcome to try it if you want. I’d recommend Dave in AZ wonderful post on the dimensions for the 50 lb mixer https://meatgistics.waltons.com/topic/5226/50lb-mixer-post-pics-with-spline-and-hookup-measurements/2?_=1676335514156

From my experience the inclusion rate of rosemary is .05-.1% and unless you love rosemary stick with the very bottom of the scale. If you are like me and want the minimum of rosemary stick with tocopherol better known as vitamin E oil. You can go with the minimum of rosemary extract and maximize the vit E or even go with straight vit E. Whatever antioxidants you add you do not want to exceed .12% according to the USDA. Grape extract and oregano are also very good antioxidants, so depending on your product you can choose accordingly.

Kavon I have found that 12.5 lbs of sticks is about max for my MB 40.I have had good luck with holding the other half in the fridge an extra day. It seems to me the flavor is better on the second batch. Congrats on getting the stuffer it will be well worth it. Good luck on your sticks.

I used the sodium phosphates professionally years ago, but now use the tripoly because I do not want to buy the larger quantities, but they are safe.

I would tend toward sauteing as well ,unless you really like the flavor and texture of semi-cooked vegetables. Thermal processing of sausage will not likely get vegetables cooked to the same degree of doneness as pre-cooking will.

pepaw welcome aboard.

salmonmaster good looking brisket. Thanks for the writeup.

Old gears were inline with brass bushings.
c0f82ca8-28b8-5c71-9895-132bc1678d68.jpg

Craig Rice I’ve seen pictures on other web sites, some with binder, some without, and some with all different kinds of binder, and the only consistent was hi temp cheese. Some had discoloring right when they cut it, some after a day in refer, that’s the way mine was. Fine the first day, next day gray around cheese. Maybe the way some binders react to cheese? Don’t know, but still pretty sure cheese has something to do with it.

Dave in AZ said in Beer sausage:

cutumup
Well, here is some good news: with the existence of chili, there can be no such thing as total sausage failure!
😉

No truer words were ever spoken. A pot of chili is veeerry forgiving when it comes to meat/sausage mistakes.😁

calldoctoday
Same as most things fir smoking and curing Difficult to obtain except from China Problems

samspade good idea. Now if they would make that thermastat cycle faster, like turned on when it went 2° below set, and turned off 2° above set temp. That would work great.