I think it would work either way.
The only issue with adding a lot of dry ingredients together with the water, it sometimes the mix can get too thick, and clump up. Not just carrot fiber, but any recipe with a lot of dry ingredients being added to water.
Sometimes it just means adding a little additional water to keep it all flowable, which usually is OK too.

ButcherBrown There is a pressure relief valve in that the chimney on the top does not completely seal–there’s about a quarter-inch gap all around the inside diameter of the chimney even when it is “closed.”

Austin Thanks so much. Two things you said really helped me out (well everything, but two in particular) 1) it has Sodium Erythorbate and 2) the PPM in Dry Rub----your math is the same as mine to achieve 120 ppm. I broke up what I have left and try some things. One is dry rub inject, two is to do a more simple traditional cure injection (will miss your great flavor profiles but will still use bacon taste booster, and three–the wife reminded me of a recipe for chunked belly that is bbq’d on the grill which is also great and it will be ready to eat before I’m done smoking. —

On the last one my only concern is how many batches I can eat before I have I would have to schedule bypass surgery—it’s so good but man something that good can’t be good for for the ol’ ticker. Note sarcasm–hopefully far from that point but I’m apparently trying.

Finally, everyone saved the day—should have checked my stock before starting. Now off to the Waltons site to order more supplies!

Thanks again!

twilliams It should be fine from what you are describing. Like I said before, just think of it like normal ground beef or ground pork. The smokehouse BBQ is very red though as the ingredients make it a lot darker.

Jonathon
WW.png

magician176 adapt and overcome.

I agree with option 3. The longer the mix sets the stiffer it becomes and can be a real pain to stuff.

Ginny2099
If you have not ground the corned beef brisket, save it for St. Patrick’s day. If you are using lean venison, you may be able to find some fat pork or beef trimmings to mix with the venison at roughly 80 % lean venison and 20% fat.

Call around and find a grocery or meat market that still trims out their meat for a source of fatty trimmings.

Everyone’s tastes vary, but I like the flavor beef fat adds to venison snack sticks.

scottAT mix by hand for this batch, work on mixer issue at a later date

mdseaside Back pressure between the knife and plate could be the key. Was your plate retaining ring inner [censored] clean and tight on the grinder head? Ck the space between the grinder knife and the plate. If it’s not a tight fit… mush

Thank you for the reply and thankfully I don’t like my bacon charred. I will keep it pliable. Pleased I do not have to waste this pork belly.

Thanks guy! Should have clarified a couple things in my question but it has nothing to do with twang, just making sure the meat is safe for consumption after I’m done smoking. Normally I would either leave it in the fridge overnight (i.e 12 hours or more) or would just go with ECA and go immediately into smoker right after stuffing. Without going into all the details I really don’t have that option this weekend so my choice is either a) add the ECA with the cure and start smoking within 6-10 hours of when the cure and ECA are added to the pork or b) leave the ECA out. I’m planning on smoking about 100 pounds of sticks in the smoker so I’m thinking it will probably take me 3-4 hours just to get everything mixed and stuffed (i.e. thus the reason for the 6-10 hour range). Based on these additional details, would you recommend ECA or not?

JoeB No Libation gives you no excuse… lessons learned 😎

Thanks for the quick responses! Much appreciated.

If you mix in the garlic, then pack it in a pan and let it sit overnight in the refrigerator prior to stuffing, you may find you get better distribution of the flavors.

Jonathon thank you. .16 and 2.4 oz of water for 1 lb ground turkey for making turkey bacon got. I appreciate you giving me the answer

I had the same problem for years until last week I switched to a vertical offset converted to propane. With the burner off to the side instead of under the sausage I no longer get over done bottoms and under done tops. I also can do 24 inch casings now instead of having to settle for 12 inch cases to keep the bottoms from overcooking. Dyna glo signature vertical offset. Paid $150 for mine brand new and robbed a burner from my turkey fryer.

LuckyDs no problem that’s what this community is all about helping one another and learning from each other…what works what doesn’t…this place is full of excellent info

bpschuebel
Thanks so much.I was thinking along those lines myself but being the first attempt wasn’t sure if myself. Ive made summer sausage several times and use the citric but didn’t think the sausage needed it.
Thanks again!

mcherbies How did the bologna turn out? I would love to add some sugar as well… Not sure how much.

Ok, cool I found it. I was using the wrong search.
Didn’t realize there are 2. Found exactly what I needed. My math was correct, it just didn’t seem like it. Thanks a bunch.

mdseaside
Nice looking sausage’s there. As Jonathon said that’s interesting about losing some smoke flavor in the Sous Vide.

Turned out quite good! Too much clove flavor though☹️ For my tastes.

Rafter3 There are only 1 or 2 seasonings that we sell that actually have the cure mixed in, the vast vast majority of them have the cure in a separate package that will be included but is in its own small bag. The exceptions to that rule is some of the fast pack stuff and honestly that is almost exclusively bought by commercial processors.

For summer sausage the best thing to do would be to watch all of https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/category/40/cured-sausage if you have time. If you don’t then watch/read:
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/765/cured-sausage-104-casings-for-summer-sausage
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/762/cured-sausage-107-basics-for-making-summer-sausage
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1099/cured-sausage-205-advanced-thermal-processing
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1108/cured-sausage-206-advanced-cured-sausage-processing

Pay special attention to the 205 thermal processing. Pulling it at 130° and finishing in 177° water is going to cut hours off of your processing. It can be a little intimidating to try on your 1st batch though. If you want to get comfortable with the process first then just watch the 104 and 107.

Quick tips would be, use sure gel meat binder, use Encapsualted Citric Acid as a cure accelerator and tang adder (if you don’t like tang then stuff before holding overnight) and finally be patient with your smoke schedule. It is easy to get frustrated during the stall and just up the temp on the smoker but that can cause issues.

Hmm, so you’re saying using cure in ground jerky may not be enough for safety, that a high salt content is needed as well? I’m not shooting for "shelf stable at room temp for six months, " as I keep jerky in the fridge or frozen. I’ll check out those videos for sure. I made a recent batch of teriyaki jerky that was real good, mostly I think because I extruded it a little thicker and didn’t cook it bone hard.

smokinjerky1991 Start here https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/683/summer-sausage-nightmare/8?_=1610834298671 that is a water shed moment in meatgistics history if you ask me! Also we talk about fatting out a good amount in https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/category/40/cured-sausage Basically to give you the cliffs notes on it fat renders out of meat if it is not mixed enough and or a binder wasn’t used. So, add sure gel meat binder and mix the meat until it is tacky and sticky.

thanks, Aaron. The problem/question I have about the calls for pickling brine aren’t addressed in your spreadsheet. For most recipes the salt, sugar, and spices are scalable (twice the volume you double the ingredients) but the nitrite concentrations are not scalable in this way. Nitrite concentration depends on how much meat you are going to put into a volume of brine and those values also depend on how long the meat will need to cure in the brine. Injections certainly shorten the time needed for curing as well as the use of accelerants. I’m hoping to figure out how these calculations are made so I can adapt the pickling recipe to use other pre-mixed cures that contain different nitrite concentrations for curing bacon and hocks.

BobK take a look at my spread sheet I attached to the bragging board “Fresh Smoked Ham”. It wasn’t created for bacon cure but uses the brown sugar cure and is scalable. Hope it helps!

@keendo That could be done, ro something like it but as it is now that would mean touching every single product page and we dont have the time for that now, especially since we will be changing to a new website soon. I shall put that on the list of things to clarify though as there is obviously some confusion on it, thanks guys!

Jonathon no worries 🙂

Thanks to everyone who helped answer Bubbas question

Jonathon 75% venison 25% pork fat with honey bbq seasoning, the pink cure, sure gel, and smoked meat stabilizer, I ended up putting them in the oven at 125 for an hour 150 for an hour and then put them on my smoker at 180 the lowest it would go till they hit 160

oldmeatcutter If you are not adding a binder I would add no more than 32 oz, if you are adding sure gel you can add up to 48 oz. You can actually go above that but the more water you add the more you will have to cook out, so it could increase your smoke time and could change the texture of your product.

lesgary absolutely you can but carrot fiber is more aimed at a fresh product and since you are using sodium erythorbate I assume you’re making a cured product? You’ll be fine with the carrot fiber but in the future use sure gel for a cured binder

genex Yeah, it won’t be quite as red as it would be if you had added the erythorbate but holding for 12-24 hours in a 50% strength solution and you are all good!

oldmeatcutter
Here is the topic on making snack sticks: https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/182/how-to-make-homemade-snack-sticks

You should use 1 quart (32 oz) of water for a 25 lb batch.

Thanks! They will be frozen.

Jehar when I make my pizza pepperoni I use 12# venison, 13# pork butt and stuff them in 32mm collagen cases. I do smoke mine and they turn out great.

carlcat Yeah, only pump the Cold Phosphate and make sure it is the very first thing that is dissolved into the mix. It takes a lot of mixing to properly dissolve that so if there is anything else already suspended in the water you are going to have a heck of a time. When you are calculating your cover 50% strength brine leave out the phosphate.

Thanks. I was just wondering if it would work for a quick fix.

Joe Hell Thanks for the information. David

I start at 160 for 2hr as my smoker only goes as low as 160.
Then to 175 for an hour. I finish at 200 until i get an internal temp of 160
after that i put them in an ice bath to cool them of and set the casing. My snack sticks come out perfect ever time this way.

bill60 What cure are you talking about? Sure cure is the cure you should be using and the https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/700/cure-conversion-chart/2 lists it as .04 oz for 1 lb and .2 oz for 5 lb. If it is a seasoning we have listed incorrectly please let me know which one but the best way to figure it for yourself is to take the weight of the bag of seasoning and divide it by the batch size. So if the bag says use 1 lb of seasoning to 25 lb of meat 1/25= lb of seasoning per lb of meat. Then multiply that by 16 for oz and then if you need to be more accurate by 28.3 for grams of seasoning per lb of meat.

kkyle597 Yeah, you should be fine, sorry you just missed me last night. 48 hours is as far as you want to go though.

Glass mountain farms I checked through our scrap parts and obsolete parts as well and don’t have a washer for a Weston #32, sorry! Hopefully, you have luck with Weston. Let me know the diameter of the auger that the thrust washer goes around and we can see if it matches the Torrey. I still don’t think it will work as it is too thick but it might be worth looking at as that could be sanded or ground down

Jonathon it was just on styrofoam trays they had wrapped. The store I was at is generally high on meat, and I only buy meat there if it is a great sale, say like .99 cent pork shoulders.

Les Strahm Yes, that is correct. So I am going to be doing a video on this eventually to clear some stuff up with injection of cures. The amount of water isn’t the important thing, it is the amount of cure. We pump hams higher than Bacon so it stays moist and don’t want a lot of water in bacon but it is the amount fo cure that is important.

Hope this helped, hams are always an issue!

GODUCKS First, I hope your brother and your family is okay and doing well! Second, what you are packing into the 1 lb bags should be 100% fine, that won;t be a problem as you can use a large stuffing tube. Where you might run into an issue is with the stuffing into the links. Since the meat has been sitting after it has had the seasoning (especially the salt) mixed in it will start to set up and become a little more difficult to deal with. Mixing it again will help a little but be careful not to overdo it, your meat right now is probably going to start extracting proteins very quickly. Now, that isn’t the end of the world or anything, it might just give you a different texture than you are used to from a breakfast sausage. All in all I think you will be fine!

Thank you all for the comments and really impressed Jonathon took the time to respond. I really do appreciate the help. I did use a pre-packaged seasoning just a flavor that Walton’s doesn’t offer. After the smoke it turned out with good flavor still but a bit soft. Overall a great learning lesson for me as the encapsulated citric acid was new to me and I didn’t even know it was in the kit. One more reason to buy kits from Waltons to get a quality product. Thanks Everyone!

jbkitzy1 First, I would recommend using Sure Gel, it is a better binder for cured meat than Carrot Fiber which is really better used in fresh sausage. It can be used in cured sausage but sure gel is the better option. Second, 70% venison and 30% pork is going to leave you too lean, you need more fat than that. Go 50/50 with venison and nice fatty untrimmed pork butts, even that will be on the low end of what you want but it will work. You were most likely somewhere in the 10-15% fat range when you want to be in the 20-30% range. The fact that they dried up on you and the meat was crumbly are indicators that it was too lean. Also, remember to mix until you have really good protein extraction, the crumbly texture could have something to do with that, or if you added ECA and mixed too long that could have done it as well. The encapsulated Ctiric acid needs to be added during the last 60 seconds of mixing, this is because we don’t want to rputure the coating on the citric acid or the acid will interact with the meat too soon in the process.

If you do want to try making a lower fat summer sausage you can take some of the principles from this video and apply them, notably using cold phosphate to increase the water holding capacity of the meat. Just know that adding that will cancel out any citric acid you are adding or any other pH dropping ingredients.
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/235/how-to-make-juicer-meat-products?_=1603748529130

I had a similar recipe and cut the kosher salt back to 2/3 cup and brown sugar up to 1 1/3 cup. I also add 1TBS course ground pepper, 1 TBS onion powder and 1 TBS garlic powder. I did this because the pink curing salt made the mix too salty for my taste. My next venture will be to add the maple syrup to the mix and see how that works out.

I have two oven thermometers arriving tomorrow and will do a thorough check on the grill to determine how the temp is and where are the hotspots. The grill is only a couple months old but I realize the possibilities of temp variations.

Hopefully, those thermostats will be helpful. I also want to test my oven temps in the kitchen to see where that is at.

Thanks for the input.

calldoctoday Maybe I am blind but I am not seeing detter22 asking for Rabbit sausage spices? Maybe it was on another post? I know this is so over used but people say rabbit does taste slightly of chicken just a little more intense and earthy (whatever that means) so I would say really anything is going to work well with it for Sausage. Hatch Green Chili springs instantly to mind as does Supreme Pizza and Apple Brat but now I am just naming my favorite bratwurst seasonings!

I think I am back up and running. The different apps I use all have a their own security and cookies settings. My old phone is lying in pieces on a hwy somewhere and I am still working on getting this one back to where the previous was.

Just use this set the PPM to 20 and enter in grams and you press calculate cure and it will give you the amount of salt need that is all you need to add only salt need ignore the rest.

http://diggingdogfarm.com/page2.html

Jonathon We used the meat, seasoning, sure cure, and water, then stuffed and put in fridge over night. I will take a look at the extractor link. Thanks for your time.

ive msde lots and lots of snack sticks and never add anything like binders etc. make sure all mixing etc. is done well and stick to a good stepped heat/smoke schedule. i never have any issues.

twilliams Doh… I know the feeling. I have the same issue when I put my vehicles back together. Always left overs part.

lkrfletcher

BTW, thank you for Your Service.

mikemikemike That’s the first I’ve heard of anyone talking about packaging up sausage before cooling it in an ice bath or shower.

I’ve not had any issue with losing too much smoke flavor or aroma in an ice bath or even a longer sous vide. Obviously, some washes off. I can smell it in the sous vide water, although I don’t smell anything in an ice bath. In either case (or both cases combined), I’ve been quite happy with the smoke level in my final product.

Jonathon they were wonderful to get on the horn. My horns are plastic. Not sure if they would struggle going stainless steel but i doubt it. As long as you soak, flush and rinse in water as recommended. I just like them being pre cut to lenght vs. Restling with 300 ft or what ever the standard casing length they come in.

twilliams We honestly don’t sell nearly enough marinades for some reason and the Pa’s Black Bull should be way more popular than it is. I wonder if they premixed it and added some other stuff if it would do better? Hard to ship though… either way, I love Pa’s Black Bull and glad it worked out for youtoo. I am sure your guests won’t be disappointed!

Ok. Thank you

Don’t have a Weston, does your sealing bar raise up on it, is it located properly?
Does it have a seal timer? Is it set properly?
Kinda vague on the problem discription

Realistically for me, i use as much of the cure as i can and throw out the rest. Customers need/expect consistancy and keeping a cure for a couple days with the erthorbate “may” change that. Ive never tested it because i dont want to throw out a whole ham or picnic. So i cant fully answer your question.

I miss the dial-up handshake a bit, if I’m honest. I started on-line with a 300 baud modem in the '80s, so I heard it for a long time.

Yes, 300 bps. We read faster than that (well, most of us do–can’t speak for Team Blue). Upgrading to 1200 baud was like going from a bicycle to a car, and getting to a “cable modem” at my workplace was like suddenly discovering I could fly like Superman. I’m sure I’m not the only one with such an experience.

I have used Kosher salt and Sea salt for beacon, Both turned out beacon a bit too salty for our taste. We tried pickling salt, it worked. We have done over 100# of belly beacon the fall and everyone has gave a excellent review.

twilburn Sorry no one has gotten to you on this, we have had a busy weekend here dealing with other stuff, but still, no excuse, I normally get a different email when we have an urgent category but did not on this. It does not need the cure but even if you used it you are far away from where your nitrite level is going to cause an issue. Out of curiosity, did you order anything else? You shouldn’t be getting extra cure packages with the #2, I will find your order and correct this going forward if you only ordered that or nothing else should have had cure in it.

Donovan Mercer Glad you found the answer, sorry, I just didn’t see this, we ended the day on Friday with a podcast (should be releasing 1st soon) and I took the day totally off yesterday and went sporting clay shooting with my new American tactical over under 12 gauge…last time I went I shot just under 70, this time…not even as good as that. Gonna take some practice with this overunder!

Jonathon we do not either. As it works out we end up with xtra meat (snack sticks/summer sausage/etc) that we just give back to the customer and they are xtra happy.

I think everyone will find out it will be hard to go back to work after spending time at home enjoying the things they love to do.
As for me…my gunshop is still open…until I get the order to close. I will continue to wipe down surfaces and do the best I can to keep customers safe.
When this is all over… I’m going on vacation!

Check with all your hunting buddies, friends and neighbors and have them check the bottom of their freezer for meat other than pork and get some fresh beef fat, Have made lots of good summer sasuage and snack sticks with 2-3 year old frozen meat.

@mstarr
boys will be boys
Sorry about the Fermento, I quit using it as well.

proper sanitation / wash them hands / no coughing into the meat - Saul Good Man!

SCVDadCooks Somewhere in the recipe for the brine it probably references for 10 pounds of meat make a brine using… Plus the recipe is also allowing for the weight of a gallon of water.

Cabelas90 Ok thanks!

Yes the only ones that I get pertain to topics I have replied to and that is great for me

Jimmy Miller If it is easier you can email it to me at jonathon@waltonsinc.com When you say you moved the bag into the ice bath, id you toss the entire bag in the ice water or did you take them out of the package? I have never left them in the bag for an ice bath. I don’t see that as an issue just direct contact with the ice water will cool them down faster and help set the casing better. So, maybe that was part of it, though it doesn’t seem likely. If you had some fat on the outside of the casings you almost assuredly had some in between the casing and the meat, so that is more likely the culprit. Next time you make them add a Binder if you aren’t already and mix until everything is really super sticky. Also, try taking them out of the bag and putting them right in the icewater. Parksider will say (and he is correct on this) that you don’t need to put the sticks ina bag for the cooking process as long as you aren’t using a sous vide circulator that draws water in and then shoots hotter water back out.

alanburkholder is correct ECA does not replace sure cure. I am going to make an update to the product page to make this clear.

DeerSlayer
I have some old Mennonite recipes -70 plus years old) that required the meat to be stuffed in homemade muslin jockers. After stuffing the jockers were fermented and subsequently cured after the fact
. But it sounds like you have already cooked these.

ruppy41 Sorry, we are getting ready for pheasant fest so no one saw this but there isn’t really a difference. Speed cure is nitrites, it is the same thing as sure cure, pink salts, cure #1, prague powder, etc. Now, if by cure you mean what is in like bacon cure then it is a little different as that cure comes mixed with salt and seasonings for a ham or bacon or whatever. But Speed Cure is just Sure Cure. I THINK it is called speed cure because it is just nitrite and not nitrates.

It being called speed cure would make some sense because nitrate has to break down to nitrite before it can break down to nitric oxide and provide any curing properties.

Thanks fellas. I’ll report back soon

craigrice thanks again for the response, I learned today!

With out having a problem with my sticks!!

Right on! Thanks Jonathon

Jonathon For Sure!
I just finished up 30lbs using your dry rub and bacon booster and it turned out GREAT!
Thanks for all the help and the truly awesome website!

Thank you all for all the wonderful responses.

Jonathon use a piece of fresh fruit but do not leave it for more than a day or so or the fruit will start to spoil

Jonathon no prob bud

akdave I’ve got a friend in Anchorage who did the same thing after retirement from the Army. He catches a military hop to Travis a couple times a year to come down to Nor Cal & visit friends & family.

Dawson Coates Cooking snack sticks kicked my butt for years… the only way I will finish cooking snack sticks is in a water bath now. Cuts down the total cook time in half and retains all of the moisture.

I’ve been using roasters and warming the water temp to 165. Load the snack sticks in the water, the water temp will dip to about 150, once the water temp is back up to 160 start checking the internal temp of the sticks until they hit 160. This process take about 30 minutes. Just make sure you get your water up to temp and very stable ahead of time. You can make the sticks fat out much faster if you are not carefully monitoring the water temp.

5A102F5F-FACC-4B44-94B5-682B8CD8E946.jpeg

farmwife It’s the 19mm casings…those aren’t super easy with any stuffer.

Jonathon No problem everyone is busy and I appreciate all the knowledge you guys willingly share! Everything turned out fine, I couldn’t find anything that said to add in last 60 seconds after about an hour of searching so eventually I talked myself into adding it with 4 minutes of mixing left on the clock

Re: Smoked meat stabilizer I beleive that’s right , you don’t hold over night though. You got to go to the smoker right away.

Sydik Farms Sorry, yes that’s what I meant about meat block, what meat and at what quantity. 2-1 ratio of deer to pork shoulder is going to give you a pretty lean Summer Sausage, I’d recommend either 25% (or so) straight pork fat or go with a 50/50 mix of venison to untrimmed pork butts/shoulder.

It’s almost impossible to get too much protein extraction when mixing by hand.

For summer sausage I would recommend grinding once through the larger plate (3/8" or so) and then through a 1/8" plate to finish.

Not sure how cold the water was but Ice water is what you are wanting. I always use ice and water in about equal parts.

But none of those really would have been the cause of a pale pink color. In all likelihood it is that it never got to “bloom” for about an hour. We touch on it in this Video/Article but for color setting you want to let it sit out for at least an hour to “bloom”

https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1108/cured-sausage-206-advanced-cured-sausage-processing.

So, I would say yes, they are safe to eat, but if it were me I would make sure to consume a small amount first and wait 24 hours to see if there are any ill effects before feeding others

Jeff Knott 12 hours is best but if you can only make 8 work then you should be ok! Sorry for the long response time, its been a weird weekend/holiday and I haven’t been around my computer until just now!

AdamCA thanks that was it ! I had a Brain fart !

Jonathon, Thanks for the assistance. I smoked the Kailbasas last night and they turned out perfect. Nice texture and taste. They were a little fragile in the edible casings and some of them broke when I took them out of the smoker, but I will have to cut them when I vacuum seal them anyway, so no issues there. I will past pics of the finished product soon. Thanks again